Sunday, March 1, 2020 23:00
The CSS-P Extremist
It seems a lot of people are really
UPSET at this itsy-bitsy web page.
Well, I guess, if you had been
brainwashed for the last 8 to 15 years
or so on the absolute superiority
of CSS over table tags (e.g. sort
of like the Nazis who
thought they were the superior race) only to watch it crumbling down with just
one (1) little unknown web page article, I guess you would be upset as well.
(especially considering there are at least a
thousand or more well established elitist-type CSS-P books, websites, authors,
gurus, and who knows what out there)
Plus, one should not forget to mention that they spent all that time redesigning
their website without tables only to figure out that in order to get any of that
neat stuff like, catalogs, forums, search results, product lists, address books,
etc. you got to have tabular data,.i.e. TABLES.
And if TABLES are good for multi-columns of data, why shouldn't tables be good for just a single column of data like in iPhones, Androids, Blackberry's and other mobile and tablet devices?
Oh, well, I guess some people will be in the DENIAL stage longer than others..And
based upon all of of the comments out there, some elitists are still in
the SHOCK and HYSTERIA stage.
stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid, and that's all I have got to say and I
still can't think
of a single good reason, argument or point."
That is, I will take things out of
paragraph because I know they have a counter point to my first reaction
but I'm too much in shock and scared to read anymore cause I know it's in the
I will pretend to say I read the whole article but cleverly forget
other point that was made when I can't respond to this article. BLAH!! BLAH!!! BLAH!!!!
This is not to mention, "Do you know how many days, weeks, months I spent on this CSS-P? It would be an instant nighmare if we admitted our mistakes and I could care less if I have to constantly live through a different nightware with each new browser version for each browser out there. I mean, that's what alcohol and drugs are for. To deny and forget the problems you make in the past."
- THE TIDE IS TURNING
counting) web sites/pages that
specifically note the
of CSS-P only layouts versus a
table / css hybrid
would have never found this much
stuff in early 2003)
- CSS Suck T-Shirt - Yes, CSS is so messed up, you can even buy this clever T-Shirt to express your frustration with CSS-P.
- Is CSS condemned to suck forever? â€“ carwow Product, Design & Engineering â€“ Medium - 2017
- How to Center in CSS | Hacker News - Ooops! A web page designed to generate code so you can "center" stuff in css!!! Wow, never needed an entire web page generator to tell how how to do centering with TABLES!
- Are we taking CSS too far? - Matt Ward on Aug 14, 2010.
TABLES - Bloat â€“ All the necessary table tags fill up your HTML, making it big and ugly and an absolute nightmare to manage. I used to use tables back in the day, and I hated it for this very reason
CSS- Bloat â€“ All the necessary CSS declarations will really bloat up your style sheets, making them an absolute nightmare to manage. Wait, didnâ€™t I just write those same words? Also, depending on how the icons are achieved, you might find your HTML bloating up with extra elements too.
- Table Layouts still win over CSS layouts in 2012 - Feb 1, 2012
The longer I am blogging and the more often I mess with my html layout (which is done in CSS) the more I come to realize that while CSS is a solution for HTML layouts but it is not a good solution and it has in my opinion completely failed to address the layout problem.
- Tables â€“ The Secret Behind Every Simple CSS Form - Software As She's Developed - Feb 12, 2007
Tableless forms are painful. Every time I start trying to create them, I wonder why I am going through the motions. Some vague sense that it will be “more accessible” and I’ll be able to tick an abstraction of a “web standards-compliant” box. But really, these table-less constructs are supposed to make page authoring easier, not harder. In the case of forms, table-less CSS makes it much harder.
- Creating Forms: Pure CSS vs Table Based - Vert Studios
While I have always been an advocate for table-less layouts with semantic HTML, designing forms with pure CSS has proven to be a complete pain in the butt.
- CSS sucks for layout - JSMonroe - Bytes.com - Aug 2008
...If web can't do this simple thing, then I don't care what you say, web CANNOT do layout.
- Tables instead of DIVs - StackOverflow - Aug 27, 2008
[Read the Last Paragraph of top voted comment]
"So if we go back and look at it in terms of table vs div, it's my opinion that we've actually come to the point where div is over-used and table is under-used. Why? Because when you really think about it, there are a lot of things out there that fall into the category of "tabular data" that tend to be overlooked. Answers and comments on this very web page, for example. They consist of multiple records, each with the same set of fields, and stored in a database table. The exact definition of tabular data. So an html table tag would absolutely be a good semantic choice to layout something like the posts here on StackOverflow. And this same principle applies to many other things as well. "
- Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value - Smashing Magazine - Nov 11. 2011
- The b, strong, i and em tags are equivalent to the span tag as far as the specification is concerned. And so are some of HTML5's tags.
- Mark-up structures content, but your choice of tags matters a lot less than we've been taught for a while. Let's go through some of the reasons why.
- CSS and Tables: The hype and the trends - Blog Corner - April 2011
Moreover, Professionals still argue the use of tables for the layout of pages on the Web, despite the fact that this goes against current standards. They argue it to be a pragmatic approach ? if not their preferred options.
- Why CSS should not be used for layout - Feb 2, 2009
CSS is really cool. It is useful for a lot of things. The basic idea of separating content from presentation is sound. But when it comes to layout, the design of CSS is fundamentally flawed. Use tables instead.
- CSS and the meaning of life - Feb 2, 2009
Why mince words? I confess, I am not a CSS expert. I all but admitted as much in my piece, which is why I based my example on code that was not written by me, but by someone who holds themselves out as being a CSS expert. Maybe I'm so idiotic that I can't even tell a real expert from a snake oil salesman. But I submit that whatever the case, I am an very good company. The mere fact that the CSS wars have gone on for as long as they have is ample evidence that there are a lot of people out there who do not find CSS a model of intuitive clarity.
- Microsoft madness and IE 8 - Feb 13, 2009
Gaaaaaaaaahhhhh! There must be something in the drinking water in Redmond. Presently I test in IE versions 6 and 7, and also test without a DOCTYPE to put those browsers into quirks mode (to emulate visitors from Google cache). Now comes IE 8 to add to the mix. IE 8 has not just two modes, but - count 'em - three. There's standards mode and quirks mode, just as with IE 6 and 7. But they encourage visitors to switch to "Compatibility view" - ostensibly to emulate the buggy IE 7 behavior. But this mode is not the same behavior as IE 7, according to this post from isolani.co.uk.
Double your testing time estimates, folks.
- If you hate positioning with css, raise your hand... - Java Programming - May 4, 2008
I always end up with nothing but trouble trying to position divs with
css that is a BREEZE to do with tables. css positioning is supposed to
be the layout savior yet my experience with it always ends up with
headaches - try something, see if it works, try something else, set if
it works. and then make sure it's ok in all browsers and make sure
it works with html strict, bla bla. Anyone else have these frustrations
as well or is it just me?
- IE6 is still the most used browser in the world - May 27, 2010
Because IE6 is the default installation of Windows XP, IE6, nine years later is still the most used browser in the world
- Google Search on web standards - This is search on the snippets of the below article as the original article at apcmag.com is not there any more. But it did attract a lot of anti-blog postings and it was one of the most FUNNIEST!
The World Wide Web is not enough - just as funny
Web standards. They're big, dumb, and they don't work. Yet, they persist. Why?
- Opera study: only 4.13% of the web is standards-compliant
The Web is fragmented, complex and always evolving.
By Ryan Paul - Ars Techna - October 15, 2008
- CSS and Tables; The war continues - the comments are insightfull
Ajaxian - November 13, 2008
- Give Up and Use Tables -
Site totally devoted to tables, challenges CSS
November 13, 2008
- Why not tables? Is CSS really better? - each have their drawback,
but tables can provide a perfectly flexible and fast website
August 23, 2007
- - Ten reasons why CSS sucks
Even though there is a "standard" and some browsers partially adhere to the standard to truly be a useful standard you need two things: Predictability and Consistency. CSS has neither.
Greg's head - September 25, 2006
- CSS Repeats Itself - CSS has a noble goal: separating content from presentation. The sad truth, though, is that the implementation of that goal is unbelievably hideous.- September 25th, 2006
- Why CSS Bugs Me
The first problem is the idea of "cascading." It means what it says: fallingâ€”as in falling apart.
PC Magazine - 07.12.06 - John C. Dvorak
- User Centered Manifesto - October 10th, 2005
..."All development regardless of CSS, Flash, DHTML, Perl, yadda, yadda will always think of the needs of the user first before any other agenda."
- MIcrosoft thinks CSS2 is a flawed standard and will not be fully implementing
it in IE7
eWeek's Microsoft Watch
- Wednesday, March 16, 2005
- SlashDot Comments on IE7's CSS2 support
slashdot - Saturday March 19, @02:19PM
- The standard is what the majority uses. Not what some "I wanna make it harder
so I can look like the head cheese fruitcake..." - June 21, 2005 (Original Thread)
- If I'm joe-sixpack I don't
give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance
- SlashDot - Saturday March 19, @02:22PM
These are things that matter to the end user. If I'm joe-sixpack I don't
give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance. Hell, I probably don't even know what
CSS 2.0 is. The only person who actually cares are the people making the
web-sites, and those people are us and in terms of market share we typically
sit at the one-percent
- Very Insightful Strategy by Microsoft to NOT be CSS2 compliant
- SlashDot Saturday March 19, @02:24PM
Actually, this may help MS more than you would think. Sites will continue
to be written for a non-standards-compliant browser, which makes them less
likely to render correctly in the browsers that do follow standards. If enough
pages render incorrectly when somebody is trying out Firefox or some other
standards compliant browser, they'll give up and go back to IE.
- ....Next time around, I'll be going back to tables. - April 23, 2005
When I re-designed Nuketown last year, I went to a CSS-only layout and I
- [Link not accessible due to password, sorry]. -->Web Standards wear No Clothes - November 11, 2005
Despite all the noise they make about a semantic web, I don't think
people who believe tables are evil have content as their primary concern. .......
Real designers think in grids, not slabs of concrete. I'm all for making
the web accessible, extensible, and defensible, but I don't see where replacing
nested table tags with nested div tags is an improvement.
hacks involved in doing something
like building a simple footer
in CSS are so numerous and ugly
that from this alone one must
suspect that those who suggest
these methods in lieu of a single
table have something different
on their agenda, an emotional
investment in an idealized final
solution formed independently
of the way the real world works.
Their arguments about saving
file size and bandwidth are equally
inane. We should optimize our
tools for the way we operate,
not the way we imagine we might
be helping out the Apache kernel
or the Unix file system.
- [German only] - Using Tables to Layout Forms - November 5, 2004
While there are many great ways to build forms using pure XHTML and
CSS without any tables, many forms are much more complex than what this method
allows. I firmly believe that there is a place in forms layout for using
tables intelligently for several reasons.
- The Rare Case for CSS Positioning - July 8, 2004
Some would say that CSS and HTML are decoupled, pointing out sites like the CSS Zen Garden. If you can replace the CSS to get a completely different layout, then CSS and HTML must be decoupled. To me, that's like saying a human heart is a standard interchangeable part… after all, if I find one of the right size and blood type, a group of skilled surgeons can replace the human heart in only 12 hours.
[Page no longer available] - View from Up Here (Jan 28, 2004)
Winner: Tables for site layout
Loser: CSS for site layout
Have you SEEN what that sh** looks like in a non-IE
F***, I wish I had those hours of my life back. Screw you, W3C,
Iâ€˜m sticking to tables. At least I can get things to line up with â€˜em.
The author tried to convert site to CSS on Dec. 18 2003 - [page no longer available]
- Cascading Style-Sheets Suck (Sep. 1, 2003)
I loathe CSS with a passion.
Correction. I loathe the fact that every web browser supports
a different, incompatible subset of CSS2. W3C standards were supposed to
save us from having to test pages in every single browser under the sun
- Mental Discharge: Tables vs. CSS (12-15-2003 )
Tables and CSS both have their places, to each their own. However, anyone
who gets all bent out of shape over people using layout tables instead of
CSS needs a kick in the face, like the f****** W3C needs a kick in
the face. "HERE IS THE STANDARD, BUT WE CANNOT ENFORCE IT, AND EVEN IF WE COULD, NO BROWSERS
ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS WE CREATE, BUT YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY
- Yuuki Aiba
- [Link no longer accessible] - CSS: Table vs CSS layouts - .net - UK's Favorite Internet Magazine
Sean Conran (April 2004)
This month, discusses the pros
and cons of using a CSS-only page layout instead of HTML tables. . It is
often the case that trying to achieve visual consistency in CSS styling
across browsers can be a real headache. At least we can rely on table structures
to be far more consistent in their display across browsers, old and new.
- " Layout
tables considered valuable" - Barry Pearson
on CSS Positioning" - Barry Pearson
CSS continues to suck...
Sucks Bollocks -
April 01, 2005
you using Tables or CSS-P (Positioning
Cascading Style Sheets)
your web page layouts?
is hard - many good
points are made , also funny
is BS - funny
- Brad Sucks - "I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts."
- CodeBitch - CSS sucks
doesn't work anywhere any way
consistently so why bother pushing
its use? Point what doesn't work,
tell web browser companies what
they are doing wrong and beg/plead/demand
they fix it.
- Okay...CSS sucks...well, browsers do, anyway...
spent the entire weekend wasting
my time trying to get a CSS-based
three-panel layout to work properly.
I finally digressed to a two-panel
layout, and now it looks okay
in IE and sucks in Mozilla Firebird.
If you people would follow the
standards, this would be easy!!!!!!
- Am I the only one that thinks CSS sucks? - You
just need to know the limitations
with regard to the browsers that
best to consult some of the
many CSS compatibility charts
- css rendering simply sucks
in existing browsers :( by Stas
....the whole layout goes
- CSS Sucks - The David Channel
vs Old School Pages - I
always use a hybrid of old
school tables with an external
stylesheet. It's the only way
to fly. Pure css sucks at
table simulations for good
cross browser compatibility.
Real tables work so well cross
browser, its spooky (only thing
that *does* work equally!)
It's understandable why Brett
does it that way. - amznVibe Oct
- CSS - It's not as cool as some people make it out to be.
After delving deep into CSS design and learning all the ins and outs - I don't
get why people are trying to
use CSS instead of tables. I
know a bunch of people will jump
on here and post all the "benefits" of using css, but the benefits just don't outweigh the hassle you go through
trying to get your layout to
sick of CSS - All this
stupid box model hacks and
quirks with the browers is
getting very annoying. So much
so, I have reverted to tables
with a little CSS for a site
I'm working on. WHy? Because
tables just work!
- ...and using a combination of tables and css. You'll be much happier
- If using CSS doesn't simplify your work, then you need to simplify how you're
using CSS, even if that means
(shudder) using tables for your
layout - May 13, 2004
- Purists, please read. January 2, 2005
The following text appeals strongly
My sites actually are compliant
with all the important browsers.
- The Future of CSS and the end of 3.0 - Aug 19, 2007
We have all been frustrated with CSS over the years. The implementation has been spotty across the browsers, and it has all but died off. IE 7 stepped up and fixed a lot, even if some weren't happy with how far they got. CSS 3 has been out there for quite some time, but apart from Opera, other browsers have selectively implemented their pet features. Some have done interesting non-standard work too: -mypetfeature-foo-bar.
- CSS Wont Drink Me Under The TABLE - July 18, 2004
...Just don't ask me to throw
out the baby tables with the
Nah gonna do
- CSS Considered Unstylish - or why CSS sucks - December 14, 2004
- Tables My A** - Tables takes me a few minutes; CSS takes me easily 10 times as
long - May 14, 2004
- I am an extremist CSS fanatic
mike d said:
Which is probably why your website
is so damn ugly. css and standards
design fascism is like telling
all artists to use only a certain
type of paint; a musician that
all music must be written purely
for piano. A sort of web design
taleban, all praise mighty
Eric Meyer and death to the
unbelievers, their use of tables
damns them for eternity......................
July 10, 2005
- Some Things Are Just Easier with Tables - May 12, 2004
....Overstating the Benefits
- MSDN Channel 9 - CSS Overrated?
- Tables? Oh, the horror! - I am suggesting merely that in some cases, it might make sense to explore
a layout table. Again, I do not
mean three-level-deep nested
tables rife with the required
colspans. I mean a light table
with two or three columns to
keep a layout together, sans
all other presentational markup.-
May 15, 2004
- "On Table-based designâ€¦ Iâ€™ve seen that design in every browser I can, under Linux,
Windows and Macintosh platforms,
and it looks practically the
same. Itâ€™s rock solid. Score
one for the tables." - May 27, 2004
- ...and in my experience I have
found that carefully using
tables produces more cross
browser compatible designs
than using divs carefull - June 2004
been working on a very slight
redesign and thorough rewrite
of this website. I pretty much
want to kick whoever invented
CSS in the nuts. - April 2004
is moribund - November
hacks are starting to break - His
message is that CSS hacks will
start to break in IE 7, and
I fully agree. -
quicksmode.org - September
- IEBlog -
Microsoft - CSS hacks that work
in IE6 will not work in IE7
prepared for a lot of frustration! -
use a hybrid of table/css; -
- Highlight of these pages
- Tables vs CSS - May 7, 2006
I've wasted about 4 hours trying to be anti-Table and use CSS-P (CSS for div tags and layout) and have just gotten extremely frustrated - not because I've had to learn CSS for the 4th time in 3 years, but because of the browser compatibility issues.
- [link no long available] - CSS fans, **cough cough** W3C....believe that CSS is the answer to everything. The fact is that load on the browser is not truly affected by tables or css positioning
- April 03, 2006
- Web Standards wear no cloths November 11, 2004
- Stop Hacking, or be Stopped - April 23, 2006
And the problem will amplify over time, as more incremental updates are released, and the browser share fragments. In one sense this won't be 1998 all over again with its 85 different versions of Netscape 4, thanks to browser auto-updating keeping most users current. But, not every user will keep up to date. I can't count how many times I ignore the update nag message on my own machine, so they can hardly be blamed.
- DIV VS Tables - Mar 17, 2009
Forum discussion on Div VS Tables, Pros and cons of both
- IE8 rendering problems - browser fault or genuine CSS fault? - May 28, 2008
- Everything You Know About CSS Is Wrong - Book Review - Feb 3, 2009
That canâ€™t be true, everything I know about CSS is wrong? Lies! Sitepoint.com it is all lies! Well maybe not all lies but I guess you would have to read the book to find out and thus I will give a review about what this book is about and see if the title of this book is correct or not.
- IE8 and Wordpress - Mar 19, 2009
Well, IE8 must be standards compliant, because all of the hacks I wrote for Internet Explorer make my pages look like sh*t now.
Make sure all of your IE conditional tags say "if IE7 or lower" or else your page will look stupid.
For instance, due to IE7's lack of support for :after, I had a really messy hack to put ellipses at the end of truncated content. Now IE8 displays two sets of ellipses - one for standards-compliant browsers, and one for my IE hack.
Being Microsoft software, it will inevitably have a swarm of bugs, security holes, and code bloat, so I'm going to keep using Firefox. However, IE8 is theoretically nicer to developers and fully supports CSS 2.1.
- Opera chief: Microsoft's IE 8 â€˜underminesâ€™ web standards - Mar 17, 2009
Opera Software chief executive Jon von Tetzchner told The Reg that while Microsoft is headed in the right direction, IE continues to undermine open standards on the web.
The fundamental problem is Microsoft's decision to allow users to continue to view billions of old pages optimized for non-compliant IE 6 and 7 that would otherwise be scrambled in IE 8.
- Microsoft to Release IE8 Today - Mar 20, 2009
I'm afraid as a web designer Iâ€™ll now have to code for IE6, IE7 and now IE8. What a mess. Why canâ€™t we all just use Firefox and forget it. But then I'd be out of a job. ;-)
- Comment by Bevan - scroll down to Bevan long comments at 2012-01-09 10:45:36
It seems people are confused about the difference between CSS tables and HTML tables. CSS tables, for lack of a better term, were never designed to be used for displaying tabular data. They were created to provide easy to implement site layout control only. If you need to display tabular data then use a table, an HTML table. To suggest otherwise, or even compare the two in this manner is absurd......
- Never Use HTML Tables, Ever! | Jason Graves - July 7, 2014
(This CSS hack to make DIV's into tables implicates the sillyness of CSS Extremist's)
- CSS vs Tables: The Debate That Won't Die - Vanseo Design - September 17, 2009
One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site.
- Tables versus Divs & How to style tables in Weaver - Weaver Themes Support Forum - April 2014
Tables are good at what they are really meant for, lots of data that need to be presented in several columns and multiple lines.
- html - Why are people making tables with divs? - Programmers Stack Exchange - - March 2015
But I still don't get it. Why are we doing this? If you need a table, then just make a blasted <table> and be done with it. Yes, even if it's for layout. That's what tables are for - laying out stuff in tabular fashion.
The best explanation that I have is that by now everyone has heard the mantra of "don't use tables for layout", so they follow it blindly. But they still need a table for layout (because nothing else has the expanding capabilities of a table), so they make a <div> (because it's not a table!) and then add CSS that makes it a table anyway.
- Ask HN: Is it just me, or is CSS too damn hard? | Hacker News
- html - Why aren't we supposed to use <table> in a design? - Webmasters Stack Exchange
- Some time ago when the CSS vs Tables wars were heating up, again....
Well, just browsing around, looks like the css tables bandwidth argument isn't being made anymore. That is, at least it wasn't the first point made during an argument. But there is someone trying to save face by doing an un-realistic R.O.I. on tables vs. css tables. Basically, it was assumed that the text editor, Notepad, was being used and forgot about using templates (Dreamweaver, Adobe GoLive, Frontpage, VS Studio. etc.) when they started to count hours. You can read about it here or here.
- Laissez les bon temps
As for Tables, it's Laissez les
bon temps rouler!
(that's Cajun for "Let the good times roll",
It's pronounced, "lay-zay lay bon ton rule-ay"!
- "Tables were never meant for layout. Tables are for tabular data."
WRONG: Good Layout starts with ALIGNMENT as your eyes read from left to right, top to bottom.
Which by the way is just like a table.
A newspaper, magazine, blog all have layouts in COLUMNS!
And where else do you see columns used for? TABLES! Moreover, at the top of each of these columns are what? HEADERS, TITLES. And where else do you see this? TABLES. And after you see the Headers and Titles, you see paragraphs (or blocks of words) or DATA. And where else do you see data underneath Headers? Tables. Hence, LAYOUT, graphical layout is actually One Big Table.
Good Graphical Design Layout is inherently TABULAR, that is, vertical and horizontal alignment so it's easier for your eyes to read..
Good Layout uses proximity, that is, grouping related things together, like using a title header over a paragraph.
Good Layout uses contrasts. For example, using a bolded font type for a title header and normal font type for the paragraph of text below it.
And where else do you see this contrast? In the header row of tables and the below data rows of Tables.
Good Layout uses repetition. For example, using a same bold type for headers and normal type for paragraphs and repeating it. Which by the way, is the same thing you see in tables.
ASIDE: Using DIV's to
make your webpages also display in a mobile device gracefully might be convenient and easy on maintainability, but notice how those same websites when displayed on a desktop or laptop are also ONE COLUMN, you just scroll down...almost like the same stripped down website you see in a mobile device, most certainly not a "rich web experience" on your desktop or laptop. Just saying.
- "tables should never be used for page layout. tables should only be used for tabular data."
- Typical CSS Advocate.
"Overall Page Layout is inherently tabular. Web pages have 1 column, 2 column and 3 columns designs. They have headers and footers. Furthermore, good aesthetic page layout has visual horizontal and vertical alignment to make it easier to read....like a table. It might not look like a table in say MS Excel, but you can still draw imaginary lines where things like paragraphs line up vertically and buttons line up vertically and horizontally. HTML tables promotes and makes this type of good overall aesthetic page layout much easier than CSS.
- User of HTML Tables.
if you made it this far, you might be interested in
the movie, The Matrix)