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                              Sunday, March 1, 2020  23:00 |  
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                                            The CSS-P Extremist
                                            Update:
 
                                            It seems a lot of people are really
                                              UPSET at this itsy-bitsy web page.
 Well, I guess, if you had been
                                              brainwashed for the last 8 to 15 years
                                              or so on the absolute superiority
                                              of CSS over table tags (e.g. sort
                                              of like the Nazis who
thought they were the superior race) only to watch it crumbling down with just
one (1) little unknown web page article, I guess you would be upset as well.
(especially considering there are at least a
thousand or more well established elitist-type CSS-P books, websites, authors,
gurus, and who knows what out there)
 
 Plus, one should not forget to mention that they spent all that time redesigning
their website without tables only to figure out that in order to get any of that
neat stuff like, catalogs, forums, search results, product lists, address books,
etc. you got to have tabular data,.i.e. TABLES.
 
 
 And if TABLES are good for multi-columns of data, why shouldn't tables be good for just a single column of data like in iPhones, Androids, Blackberry's and other mobile and tablet devices? Oh, well, I guess some people will be in the DENIAL stage longer than others..And
based upon all of  of the comments out there, some elitists are still in
the SHOCK and HYSTERIA stage.
 
 For example:
 
 "you're
stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid, and that's all I have got to say and I
still can't think
of a single good reason, argument or point."
 
 That is, I will take things out of
context and 
refuse
to
read
the
entire
paragraph because I know they have a counter point to my first reaction 
but I'm too much in shock and scared to read anymore cause I know it's in the
next
sentence
and
I will pretend to say I read  the whole article but cleverly forget
that
other point that was made when I can't respond to this article. BLAH!! BLAH!!! BLAH!!!!
 
 This is not to mention, "Do you know how many days, weeks, months I spent on this CSS-P? It would be an instant nighmare if we admitted our mistakes and I could care less if I have to constantly live through a different nightware with each new browser version for each browser out there. I mean, that's what alcohol and drugs are for. To deny and forget the problems you make in the past."
 
 
 
 
THE TIDE IS TURNING 80+ (and
                                                counting) web sites/pages that
                                                specifically note the
                                                  hazards
 of CSS-P only layouts versus a
                                                table / css hybrid
 (you
                                                would have never found this much
                                              stuff in early 2003)
 
 
 
                                                CSS Suck T-Shirt - Yes, CSS is so messed up, you can even buy this clever T-Shirt to express your frustration with CSS-P.
 
Is CSS condemned to suck forever? – carwow Product, Design & Engineering – Medium - 2017
 
How to Center in CSS | Hacker News - Ooops! A web page designed to generate code so you can  "center" stuff in css!!! Wow, never needed an entire web page generator to tell how how to do centering   with TABLES!
 
Are we taking CSS too far? - Matt Ward on Aug 14, 2010.TABLES - Bloat – All the necessary table tags fill up your HTML,   making it big and ugly and an absolute nightmare to manage. I used to   use tables back in the day, and I hated it for this very reason
 
 CSS- Bloat – All the necessary CSS declarations will really   bloat up your style sheets, making them an absolute nightmare to manage.   Wait, didn’t I just write those same words? Also, depending on how the   icons are achieved, you might find your HTML bloating up with extra   elements too.
 
 
 Table Layouts still win over CSS layouts in 2012 - Feb 1, 2012The longer I am blogging and the more often I mess with my html layout (which is done in CSS) the more I come to realize that while CSS is a solution for HTML layouts but it is not a good solution and it has in my opinion completely failed to address the layout problem.
 
 
 Tables – The Secret Behind Every Simple CSS Form - Software As She's Developed - Feb 12, 2007Tableless forms are painful. Every time I start trying to create them, I   wonder why I am going through the motions. Some vague sense that it   will be “more accessible” and I’ll be able to tick an abstraction of a   “web standards-compliant” box. But really, these table-less constructs   are supposed to make page authoring easier, not harder. In the case of   forms, table-less CSS makes it much harder.
 
 
 Creating Forms: Pure CSS vs Table Based                                                  - Vert StudiosWhile I have always been an advocate for table-less layouts with   semantic HTML, designing forms with pure CSS has proven to be a complete   pain in the butt.
 
 
 
 CSS sucks for layout - JSMonroe - Bytes.com - Aug 2008...If web can't do this simple thing, then I don't care what you say, web CANNOT do layout.
 
 
 Tables instead of DIVs - StackOverflow - Aug 27, 2008[Read the Last Paragraph of top voted comment]
 "So if we go back and look at it in terms of table vs div, it's my   opinion that we've actually come to the point where div is over-used and   table is under-used.  Why? Because when you really think about it,   there are a lot of things out there that fall into the category of   "tabular data" that tend to be overlooked.  Answers and comments on this   very web page, for example.  They consist of multiple records, each   with the same set of fields, and stored in a database table.  The exact   definition of tabular data.  So an html table tag would absolutely be a   good semantic choice to layout something like the posts here on   StackOverflow.  And this same principle applies to many other things as   well.                                                  "
 
 
Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value - Smashing Magazine - Nov 11. 2011- The b, strong, i and em tags are equivalent to the span tag as far as the specification is concerned. And so are some of HTML5's tags.
 - Mark-up structures content, but your choice of tags matters a lot less than we've been taught for a while. Let's go through some of the reasons why.
 
 
 CSS and Tables: The hype and the trends                                                  - Blog Corner - April 2011Moreover, Professionals still argue the use of tables for the layout of   pages on the Web, despite the fact that this goes against current   standards. They argue it to be a pragmatic approach ? if not their   preferred options.
 
 
 
 Why CSS should not be used for layout - Feb 2, 2009CSS is really cool.  It is useful for a lot of things.  The basic  idea of separating content from presentation is sound.  But when it comes  to layout, the design of CSS is fundamentally flawed.  Use tables  instead.
 
 
CSS and the meaning of life - Feb 2, 2009Why mince words? I confess, I am not a CSS expert. I all but admitted  as much in my piece, which is why I based my example on code that was  not written by me, but by someone who holds themselves out as being a  CSS expert. Maybe I'm so idiotic that I can't even tell a real expert  from a snake oil salesman. But I submit that whatever the case, I am an  very good company. The mere fact that the CSS wars have gone on for as  long as they have is ample evidence that there are a lot of people out  there who do not find CSS a model of intuitive clarity.
 
 
Microsoft madness and IE 8 - Feb 13, 2009Gaaaaaaaaahhhhh! There must be something in the drinking water in Redmond. Presently I test in IE versions 6 and 7, and also test without a  DOCTYPE to put those browsers into quirks mode (to emulate visitors  from Google cache). Now comes IE 8 to add to the mix. IE 8 has not just two modes, but - count 'em - three.  There's standards mode and quirks mode, just as with IE 6 and 7. But  they encourage visitors to switch to "Compatibility view" - ostensibly  to emulate the buggy IE 7 behavior. But this mode is not the same behavior as IE 7, according to this post from isolani.co.uk.
                                                  Double your testing time estimates, folks.
 
 
If you hate positioning with css, raise your hand... - Java Programming - May 4, 2008I always end up with nothing but trouble trying to position divs with 
                                                    css   that is a BREEZE to do with tables. css positioning is supposed to 
                                                    be   the layout savior yet my experience with it always ends up with 
                                                    headaches   - try something, see if it works, try something else, set if 
                                                    it   works. and then make sure it's ok in all browsers and make sure 
                                                    it   works with html strict, bla bla. Anyone else have these frustrations 
                                                    as   well or is it just me?
 
 
IE6 is still the most used browser in the world - May 27, 2010Because IE6 is the default installation of Windows XP, IE6, nine years later is still the most used browser in the world
 slashdot talk
 
 
 
Google Search on  web standards  - This is search on the snippets of the below article as the original article at apcmag.com is not there any more. But it did attract a lot of anti-blog postings and it was one of the most FUNNIEST!
 
 
 The World Wide Web is not enough- just as funnyWeb standards. They're big, dumb, and they don't work. Yet, they persist. Why?
 
 
Opera study: only 4.13% of the web is standards-compliantThe Web is fragmented, complex and always evolving.
 By Ryan Paul - Ars Techna - October 15, 2008
 
 
CSS and Tables; The war continues - the comments are insightfullAjaxian - November 13, 2008
 
 
Give Up and Use Tables - 
    Site totally devoted to tables, challenges CSSNovember 13, 2008
 
 
Why not tables? Is CSS really better? - each have their drawback, but tables can provide a perfectly flexible and fast website
 August 23, 2007
 
 
 - Ten reasons why CSS sucksEven though there is a "standard" and some browsers partially adhere to  the standard to truly be a useful standard you need two things:  Predictability and Consistency. CSS has neither.
 Greg's head - September 25, 2006
 
 
CSS Repeats Itself - CSS has a noble goal: separating content from presentation. The sad  truth, though, is that the implementation of that goal is unbelievably  hideous.- September 25th, 2006
 
  Why CSS Bugs MeThe first problem is the idea of "cascading." It means what it says: falling—as in falling apart.
 PC Magazine - 07.12.06 - John C. Dvorak
 
 
User Centered Manifesto - October 10th, 2005..."All development regardless of CSS, Flash, DHTML, Perl, yadda, yadda  will always think of the needs of the user first before any other  agenda."
 
 
MIcrosoft thinks CSS2 is a flawed standard and will not be fully implementing
    it in IE7eWeek's Microsoft Watch 
    -  Wednesday, March 16, 2005
 
 
SlashDot Comments on IE7's CSS2 supportslashdot - Saturday March 19, @02:19PM
 
 
The standard is what the majority uses. Not what some "I wanna make it harder
    so I can look like the head cheese fruitcake..." - June 21, 2005 (Original Thread)
 
If I'm joe-sixpack I don't
    give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance - SlashDot - Saturday March 19, @02:22PM
 These are things that matter to the end user. If I'm joe-sixpack I don't
    give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance. Hell, I probably don't even know what
    CSS 2.0 is. The only person who actually cares are the people making the
    web-sites, and those people are us and in terms of market share we typically
    sit at the one-percent
    noise level...
 
 
Very  Insightful Strategy by Microsoft to NOT be CSS2 compliant-  SlashDot Saturday March 19, @02:24PM
 Actually, this may help MS more than you would think. Sites will continue
    to be written for a non-standards-compliant browser, which makes them less
    likely to render correctly in the browsers that do follow standards. If enough
    pages render incorrectly when somebody is trying out Firefox or some other
    standards compliant browser, they'll give up and go back to IE.
 
 
....Next time around, I'll be going back to tables. - April 23, 2005When I re-designed Nuketown last year, I went to a CSS-only layout and I
       regret it;
 
 
[Link not accessible due to password, sorry]. -->Web Standards wear No Clothes - November 11, 2005Despite all the noise they make about a semantic web, I don't think
    people who believe tables are evil have content as their primary concern.    .......
 Real designers think in grids, not slabs of concrete. I'm all for making
    the web accessible, extensible, and defensible, but I don't see where replacing
    nested table tags with nested div tags is an improvement.
 
 The
                                                hacks involved in doing something
                                                like building a simple footer
                                                in CSS are so numerous and ugly
                                                that from this alone one must
                                                suspect that those who suggest
                                                these methods in lieu of a single
                                                table have something different
                                                on their agenda, an emotional
                                                investment in an idealized final
                                                solution formed independently
                                                of the way the real world works.
                                                Their arguments about saving
                                                file size and bandwidth are equally
                                                inane. We should optimize our
                                                tools for the way we operate,
                                                not the way we imagine we might
                                                be helping out the Apache kernel
                                                or the Unix file system.
 
 
 
[German only] - Using Tables to Layout Forms - November 5, 2004While there are many great ways to build forms using pure XHTML and
    CSS without any tables, many forms are much more complex than what this method
    allows. I firmly believe that there is a place in forms layout for using
    tables intelligently for several reasons.
 
 
The Rare Case for CSS Positioning - July 8, 2004Some would say that CSS and HTML are decoupled, pointing out sites like the CSS Zen Garden. If you can replace the CSS to get a completely different layout, then CSS and HTML must be decoupled. To me, that's like saying a human heart is a standard interchangeable part… after all, if I find one of the right size and blood type, a group of skilled surgeons can replace the human heart in only 12 hours.
 
 
    [Page no longer available] - View from Up Here (Jan 28, 2004)Winner: Tables for site layout
 Loser: CSS for site layout
 Have you SEEN what that sh** looks like in a non-IE
    browser?
 F***, I wish I had those hours of my life back. Screw you, W3C,
    I‘m sticking to tables. At least I can get things to line up with ‘em.
 The author tried to convert site to CSS on Dec. 18 2003 - [page no longer available]
 
 
                                                  Cascading Style-Sheets Suck (Sep. 1, 2003)I loathe CSS with a passion.
 Correction. I loathe the fact that every web browser supports
      a different, incompatible subset of CSS2. W3C standards were supposed to
      save us from having to test pages in every single browser under the sun
 
 
Mental Discharge: Tables vs. CSS (12-15-2003 )Tables and CSS both have their places, to each their own. However, anyone
    who gets all bent out of shape over people using layout tables instead of
    CSS needs a kick in the face, like the f****** W3C needs a kick in
    the face. "HERE IS THE STANDARD, BUT WE CANNOT ENFORCE IT, AND EVEN IF WE COULD, NO BROWSERS
    ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS WE CREATE, BUT YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY
 - Yuuki Aiba
 
 
[Link no longer accessible] -  CSS: Table vs CSS layouts -    .net - UK's Favorite Internet Magazineby 
    Sean Conran (April 2004)
 This month, discusses the pros
    and cons of using a CSS-only page layout instead of HTML tables. . It is
      often the case that trying to achieve visual consistency in CSS styling
      across browsers can be a real headache. At least we can rely on table structures
      to be far more consistent in their display across browsers, old and new.
 
 
"    Layout
                                                    tables considered valuable" - Barry Pearson                                             
  "Reflections
                                                  on CSS Positioning" - Barry Pearson                                             
 And
                                                    CSS continues to suck...
 
                                                  CSS
                                                  Sucks Bollocks -  
                                                    April 01, 2005
 
Are
                                                    you using Tables or CSS-P (Positioning
                                                    Cascading Style Sheets)for
                                                    your web page layouts?
 CSS
                                                    Hacks Suck
 
CSS
                                                  is hard - many  good
                                                points are made , also funny 
 
CSS
                                                is BS - funny 
 
Brad Sucks - "I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts."
 
CodeBitch - CSS sucks CSS
                                                doesn't work anywhere any way
                                                consistently so why bother pushing
                                                its use? Point what doesn't work,
                                                tell web browser companies what
                                                they are doing wrong and beg/plead/demand
                                                they fix it.
 
 
Okay...CSS sucks...well, browsers do, anyway...I
                                                spent the entire weekend wasting
                                                my time trying to get a CSS-based
                                                three-panel layout to work properly.
                                                I finally digressed to a two-panel
                                                layout, and now it looks okay
                                                in IE and sucks in Mozilla Firebird.
                                                If you people would follow the
                                                standards, this would be easy!!!!!!
                                                Grr....
 
 
Am I the only one that thinks CSS sucks? -                                                You
                                                just need to know the limitations
                                                with regard to the browsers that
                                                you support.
It's
                                                  best to consult some of the
                                                  many CSS compatibility charts
                                                  out there.
 
                                                  css rendering simply sucks
                                                in existing browsers :( by Stas
                                                Bekman....the whole layout goes
                                                kaput.
 
 
CSS Sucks - The David Channel
 
CSS
                                                  vs Old School Pages -                                                  I
                                                  always use a hybrid of old
                                                  school tables with an external
                                                 stylesheet. It's the only way
                                                 to fly. Pure css sucks at
                                                  table simulations for good
                                                  cross browser compatibility.
                                                  Real tables work so well cross
                                                  browser, its spooky (only thing
                                                  that *does* work equally!)
                                                  It's understandable why Brett
                                                  does it that way. -   amznVibe Oct
                                                2003 
 
CSS - It's not as cool as some people make it out to be. After delving deep into CSS design and learning all the ins and outs - I don't
                                                get why people are trying to
                                                use CSS instead of tables. I
                                                know a bunch of people will jump
                                                on here and post all the "benefits" of using css, but the benefits just don't outweigh the hassle you go through
                                                trying to get your layout to
                                                work.
 
 
I'm
                                                  sick of CSS -   All this
                                                  stupid box model hacks and
                                                  quirks with the browers is
                                                  getting very annoying. So much
                                                  so, I have reverted to tables
                                                  with a little CSS for a site
                                                  I'm working on. WHy? Because
                                                  tables just work!  
 
 
...and using a combination of tables and css. You'll be much happier
 
If using CSS doesn't simplify your work, then you need to simplify how you're
                                                using CSS, even if that means
                                                (shudder) using tables for your
                                                layout - May 13, 2004
 
 
Purists, please read. January 2, 2005The following text appeals strongly
                                                  to me.
 My sites actually are compliant
                                                  with all the important browsers.
 
 
 
The Future of CSS and the end of 3.0 - Aug 19, 2007We have all been frustrated with CSS over the years. The implementation  has been spotty across the browsers, and it has all but died off. IE 7  stepped up and fixed a lot, even if some weren't happy with how far  they got. CSS 3 has been out there for quite some time, but apart from  Opera, other browsers have selectively implemented their pet features.  Some have done interesting non-standard work too: -mypetfeature-foo-bar.
 
 
 
CSS Wont Drink Me Under The TABLE - July 18, 2004...Just don't ask me to throw
                                                  out the baby tables with the
                                                  CSS bathwater.
 Nah gonna do
                                                  it.
 
 
CSS Considered Unstylish - or why CSS sucks - December 14, 2004
 
Tables My A** - Tables takes me a few minutes; CSS takes me easily 10 times as
                                                  long - May 14, 2004
 
 
I am an extremist CSS fanaticmike d said:
 Which is probably why your website
                                                  is so damn ugly. css and standards
                                                  design fascism is like telling
                                                  all artists to use only a certain
                                                  type of paint; a musician that
                                                  all music must be written purely
                                                  for piano. A sort of web design
                                                  taleban, all praise mighty
                                                  Eric Meyer and death to the
                                                  unbelievers, their use of tables
                                                  damns them for eternity......................
 July 10, 2005
 
 
Some Things Are Just Easier with Tables - May 12, 2004....Overstating the Benefits
 
 
MSDN Channel 9 - CSS Overrated?
 
Tables? Oh, the horror! - I am suggesting merely that in some cases, it might make sense to explore
                                                a layout table. Again, I do not
                                                mean three-level-deep nested
                                                tables rife with the required
                                                colspans. I mean a light table
                                                with two or three columns to
                                                keep a layout together, sans
                                                all other presentational markup.-
                                                May 15, 2004
 
"On Table-based design… I’ve seen that design in every browser I can, under Linux,
                                                Windows and Macintosh platforms,
                                                and it looks practically the
                                                same. It’s rock solid. Score
                                                one for the tables." - May 27, 2004
 
...and in my experience I have
                                                  found that carefully using
                                                  tables produces more cross
                                                  browser compatible designs
                                                  than using divs carefull - June 2004
 
 I’ve
                                                  been working on a very slight
                                                  redesign and thorough rewrite
                                                  of this website. I pretty much
                                                  want to kick whoever invented
                                                CSS in the nuts. - April 2004 
 
CSS
                                                  is moribund - November
                                                2004 
 
 CSS
                                                  hacks are starting to break -  His
                                                  message is that CSS hacks will
                                                  start to break in IE 7, and
                                                  I fully agree.                                                  -
                                                  quicksmode.org - September
                                                  2005 
 
IEBlog -
                                                Microsoft - CSS hacks that work
                                                in IE6 will not work in IE7 
 
 Be
                                                  prepared for a lot of frustration! -
                                                I personally
                                                use a hybrid of table/css; -
                                                July 2005 
 
Highlight of these pages
 
 
 Tables vs CSS - May 7, 2006 I've wasted about 4 hours trying to be anti-Table and use CSS-P (CSS  for div tags and layout) and have just gotten extremely frustrated -  not because I've had to learn CSS for the 4th time in 3 years, but  because of the browser compatibility issues.
 
 
 
[link no long available] - CSS fans, **cough cough** W3C....believe that CSS is the answer to  everything. The fact is that load on the browser is not truly affected  by tables or css positioning-  April 03, 2006
 
 
 Still
                                                  the tide
                                                  is turning....
Web Standards wear no cloths November 11, 2004
 
 
Stop Hacking, or be Stopped - April 23, 2006 And the problem will amplify over time, as more incremental updates are  released, and the browser share fragments. In one sense this won't be  1998 all over again with its 85 different versions of Netscape 4,  thanks to browser auto-updating keeping most users current. But, not  every user will keep up to date. I can't count how many times I ignore  the update nag message on my own machine, so they can hardly be blamed.
 
 
DIV VS Tables - Mar 17, 2009Forum discussion on Div VS Tables, Pros and cons of both
 
 
IE8 rendering problems - browser fault or genuine CSS fault? - May 28, 2008
 
Everything You Know About CSS Is Wrong - Book Review - Feb 3, 2009That can’t be true, everything I know about CSS is wrong? Lies!  Sitepoint.com it is all lies! Well maybe not all lies but I guess you  would have to read the book to find out and thus I will give a review  about what this book is about and see if the title of this book is  correct or not.
 
 
IE8 and Wordpress - Mar 19, 2009Well, IE8 must be standards compliant, because all of the hacks I wrote for Internet Explorer make my pages look like sh*t now.
                                                Make sure all of your IE conditional tags say "if IE7 or lower" or else your page will look stupid. 
                                                For instance, due to IE7's lack of support for :after, I had a  really messy hack to put ellipses at the end of truncated content. Now  IE8 displays two sets of ellipses - one for standards-compliant  browsers, and one for my IE hack.
                                                Being Microsoft software, it will inevitably have a swarm of bugs,  security holes, and code bloat, so I'm going to keep using Firefox.  However, IE8 is theoretically nicer to developers and fully supports  CSS 2.1.
 
 
 Opera chief: Microsoft's IE 8 ‘undermines’ web standards - Mar 17, 2009Opera Software chief executive Jon von Tetzchner told The Reg that while Microsoft is headed in the right direction, IE continues to undermine open standards on the web.
                                                The fundamental problem is Microsoft's decision to allow users to  continue to view billions of old pages optimized for non-compliant IE 6  and 7 that would otherwise be scrambled in IE 8.
 
 
 Microsoft to Release IE8 Today - Mar 20, 2009I'm afraid as a web designer I’ll now have to code for IE6, IE7 and now  IE8. What a mess. Why can’t we all just use Firefox and forget it. But  then I'd be out of a job. ;-)
 
 
 
Comment by Bevan - scroll down to Bevan long comments at 2012-01-09 10:45:36It seems people are confused about the difference between CSS tables and HTML tables. CSS tables, for lack of a better term, were never designed to be used   for displaying tabular data. They were created to provide easy to   implement site layout control only. If you need to display tabular data   then use a table, an HTML table. To suggest otherwise, or even compare   the two in this manner is absurd......
Never Use HTML Tables, Ever! | Jason Graves - July 7, 2014We don’t need to use tables, we can get table like functionality cleanly   with none of the hassles of using true HTML tables especially with   regard to JavaScript and CSS, and here’s how.
 (This CSS hack to make DIV's into tables implicates the sillyness of CSS Extremist's)
 
 
CSS vs Tables: The Debate That Won't Die - Vanseo Design - September 17, 2009One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development   community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the   layout of your site.
Tables versus Divs & How to style tables in Weaver - Weaver Themes Support Forum - April 2014Tables are good at what they are really meant for, lots of data that need to be presented in several columns and multiple lines.
 
html - Why are people making tables with divs? - Programmers Stack Exchange - - March 2015But I still don't get it. Why are we doing this? If you need a table, then just make a blasted <table> and be done with it. Yes, even if it's for layout. That's what tables are for - laying out stuff in tabular fashion.
 The best explanation that I have is that by now everyone has heard   the mantra of "don't use tables for layout", so they follow it blindly.   But they still need a table for layout (because nothing else has the expanding capabilities of a table), so they make a <div> (because it's not a table!) and then add CSS that makes it a table anyway.Ask HN: Is it just me, or is CSS too damn hard? | Hacker Newshttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19021719
 
 
html - Why aren't we supposed to use <table> in a design? - Webmasters Stack Exchangehttps://webmasters.stackexchange.com/questions/6036/why-arent-we-supposed-to-use-table-in-a-design/6037
 
 
 
 
Some time ago when the CSS vs Tables wars were heating up, again....Well, just browsing around, looks like the css tables bandwidth argument isn't being made anymore. That is, at least it wasn't the first point made during an argument. But there is someone trying to save face by doing an un-realistic R.O.I. on tables vs. css tables. Basically, it was assumed that the text editor, Notepad, was being used and forgot about using templates (Dreamweaver, Adobe GoLive, Frontpage, VS Studio. etc.) when they started to count hours. You can read about it here or here.
 
 
 
 
Laissez les bon temps
                                                  rouler!As for Tables, it's Laissez les
      bon temps rouler!
 (that's Cajun for "Let the good times roll",
 It's pronounced, "lay-zay lay bon ton rule-ay"!
 
 
 
"Tables were never meant for layout. Tables are for tabular data."
 WRONG: Good Layout starts with ALIGNMENT as your eyes read from left to right, top to bottom.
 Which by the way is just like a table.
                                              A newspaper, magazine, blog all have layouts in COLUMNS!
 And where else do you see columns used for? TABLES! Moreover, at the top of each of these columns are what? HEADERS, TITLES. And where else do you see this? TABLES. And after you see the Headers and Titles, you see paragraphs (or blocks of words) or DATA. And where else do you see data underneath Headers? Tables. Hence, LAYOUT, graphical layout is actually One Big Table.
 
 Good Graphical Design Layout is inherently TABULAR, that is, vertical and horizontal alignment so it's easier for your eyes to read..
 
 Good Layout uses proximity, that is, grouping related things together, like using a title header over a paragraph.
 Good Layout uses contrasts. For  example, using a bolded font type for a title header and normal font type for the paragraph of text below it.
                                              And where else do you see this contrast? In the header row of tables and the below data rows of Tables.
 Good Layout uses repetition. For example, using a same bold type for headers and normal type for  paragraphs and repeating it. Which by the way, is the same thing you see in tables.
 
 
 ASIDE: Using DIV's to
make your webpages also display in a mobile device gracefully might be convenient and easy on maintainability, but notice how those same websites when displayed on a desktop or laptop are also ONE COLUMN, you just scroll down...almost like the same stripped down website you see in a mobile device, most certainly not a "rich web experience" on your desktop or laptop. Just saying.
 
 
 
"tables should never be used for page layout. tables should only be used for tabular data." - Typical CSS Advocate.
 
 "Overall Page Layout is inherently tabular. Web pages have 1 column, 2 column and 3 columns designs. They have headers and footers. Furthermore, good aesthetic page layout has visual horizontal and vertical alignment to make it easier to read....like a table. It might not look like a table in say MS Excel, but you can still draw imaginary lines where things like paragraphs line up vertically and buttons line up vertically and horizontally. HTML tables promotes and makes this type of good overall aesthetic page layout much easier than CSS.
 - User of HTML Tables.
 
 
 
 if you made it this far, you might be interested in
 Matrix
                                  Hamster Power
 (about
                                  the movie, The Matrix)
 
 
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